The Last Word With Lawrence O'Donnell : MSNBCW : June 20, 2024 10:00pm-11:01pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

against big polluters for instance. they are hoping the public won't really understand. it is complicated. you need to learn some administrative law to wrap your head around it. they will take that on. they will issue major decisions one on top of the other the last couple of days of the term. it will be a huge news dump. and frankly i think they are hoping that the average american, the average voter, aren't really going to have the bandwidth to process this and factor it into their vote in move. >> mark joseph stern. senior writer covering the courts and the law for slate magazine. thank you so much for taking the time tonight. >> thanks. >> that is our show this evening. now it is time for the last word with laura haefeli. good evening lawrence. >> good evening alicia. we have dr. anthony fauci joining us tonight. he will never be thanked enough for the lives he has saved including our own for all we know. with the covid vaccine but i'm going to try. i will spend some time trying to thank him enough. >> trying to thank him, thank

him on behalf of all of us. >> we will. thanks alicia. thank you. well, there will be a parade tomorrow for this year's nba champions, the boston celtics. we give our heros parades. and the early days of space travel, we gave astronauts parades. but then we shot so many astronauts into space and even to the moon we stopped giving them parades. we took space travel for granted. it was no longer the stuff of heroism. our most important heros have always been taken for granted. i am talking about the most important work a human being can do. they save lives. there is no higher calling than saving lives. some of you might know what it feels like but most of us don't. most of us have never and will

never save a life. not one. we won't drag a wounded soldier off a battlefield. drag a dying person to an emergency room just in time. we won't pull a drowning child out of the water and we won't treat patients in hospitals who would die without our medical expertise. not every doctor and nurse saves lives. some areas of medicine do not involve life and death. some doctors occasionally save lives. and then, there is dr. anthony fauci. he has had the experience as an attending physician of saving the life of a patient in his care and in his 54 years at the national institute of health fighting every infectious disease that emerged in those 54 years and saving living.

dr. fauci's work has saved millions upon millions of lives. >> who are the heros who are there in american life today? who are the ones that you would point out to young americans as figures who should inspire this country? >> dr. anthony fauci. he is a fine research top doctor at national institutes of health. working hard for research on the disease of aids. >> after years of the research and clinical struggle with hiv/aids, dr. fauci's work helped us get through the medical breakthroughs that meant aids was no longer a death sentence. and he did not believe that his moral responsibility as a physician, public health official stopped at the border. he convinced republican president george w. bush to fully fund a massive aids

intervention project in africa that was called the emergency plan for aids relief. pepfar, the largest global health initiative for a single disease by any country in history. that was dr. anthony fauci's work. and that program saved over 25 million lives. >> i hate to use the word gay in connection with sodomy. there is nothing gay about these people. engaging in incredibly offensive and revolting conduct that has led to the proliferation of aids. >> there is a feeling among members of any of the number of professions or just the general population that patients with aids, many of whom are hom*osexual, are a little bit different. i think that has led to a

little bit of a complacency about the approach toward this disease. >> dr. fauci has always had to deal with harsh critics of his work and attacks on him personally. really nasty attacks. on some aids research activists were dissatisfied, understandably since they were dying. dissatisfied with the medical progress in treating aids. they called dr. fauci a murderer. the playwright larry kramer called dr. fauci a murderer more than once. dr. fauci's reaction to those attacks was to invite the people who were attacking him and calling him a murderer into his office to hear their complaints. he went to greenwich village to meetings to hear their complaints. he went to san francisco to speak to those people in the streets so hear their

complaints. some of those protesters who called dr. fauci a murderer eventually became his best friends. dr. fauci's work enabled larry kramer who was hiv positive to live to the age of 84. and their last words to each other? and what were the last weeks of larry kramer's life were? larry saying i love you tony and i tearfully responded i love you, too, larry. that story is told in anthony fauci's powerful hugely informative and deeply emotional new book on call. then came aids. he filled the national institute of health with as many beds as possible to serve

aids patients directly and treat them directly himself. and for the first time in his medical career, he would not be a lifesaver. he did not have the tools or the medicines. he was helplessly watching his patients die. ron had gone completely blind. the virus, despite treatment that was obviously inadequate, had literally chewed up the critical sight elements of his retina from the time we had made morning rounds to the time we walked into the room that evening. we left and finished our rounds. i burst into tears. i was not just deeply shakenned

and saddened, i was frustrated and angry. ron would soon die. this was just one such story. when all of the rest of us and everyone in the world were waiting for a covid vaccine, we did not have to wait as long as aids patients had to wait for relief. thanks to the years, decades of research on vaccines and infectious diseases that anthony fauci and others committed their lives to. you all know the recent completely undeserved attacks that dr. fauci has suffered including in a recent congressional hearing. this is not the night for that. they have had their microphones. they will not be heard here. this hour is for you to finally, really meet the man.

the man behind the title. the man behind all that wise medical advice that he has delivered to all of us for decades. that man's compassion and commitment and wisdom filled the pages of his new book that is about his own love story with his wife and family. his scientific detective work that actually lets you feel like you understand the medicine as you are reading it. and you do, but don't try to repeat it to anyone as i tried to. and also, this book is full of dr. fauci's steadiness and reliability under pressure. the bedside manner this country has always needed in a public health crisis. that is the story told in this

book and i invite you tonight to meet anthony fauci. dr. fauci, thank you very much for joining us tonight. i have my own impression prior to holding this book in my hands. then this story begins in bensonhurst brooklyn with you literally living above your father's store where you got your first feeling for medicine. >> right, my father owned the drugstore in brooklyn new york and we lived on top of the drugstore. my bedroom was right on top. and this was the 40s and the 50s and at that time, pharmacies in the neighborhood were not the chain pharmacies we have now. and the pharmacist was the local psychiatrist marriage counselor and dock for the people there who maybe could not get to a physician.

so i learned right from the very beginning this issue of caring about other people. so i really attribute that to my mother and my father who actually lived a life like that. and i joked around in our family, it's a joke in the family. my father was a very poor businessman because the people in the neighborhood who were not wealthy at all, it was a working class neighborhood in brooklyn, often could not afford the price of the prescription. and he would essentially give it to them either on a bill which they never paid or essentially free. so we didn't do very well financially. but the satisfaction of taking care of the neighborhood was something that i learned from the time i was eight, nine, ten years old. >> this is so familiar to me. our neighborhood pharmacy in

boston. he let people get medicine on credit. let the kids hang around in the drugstore and crowd things up. and he was an absolutely beloved figure. and for a lot of people he was the closest people would get to medical advice. as you were living there above the store when it comes time to go to high school, you have to take three subways to get out of bensonhurst. across the east river. all the way up to the upper east side to go to a catholic boy's school where you were given a scholarship and that place became the real introduction to academics for you. >> it was regis high school, a jesuit high school in manhattan as you described. it really was underscoring and

solidifying the things i learned when i was eight, nine, ten years old with my parents. because the motto of the school, it is an old boy's school, still is. was men for others which is kind of the mantra of the jesuits. and i learned there that same sort of mission in life, whatever you do, you don't have to go into codified public service. but whatever you do, you should try and serve mankind and hopefully make a contribution to making the world a better place. >> listen, i went to the schools too. they said that stuff to all of us. most of us didn't do it. okay? it didn't stick. okay? and we did not become the selfless kind of people that those jesuits were. i had great priests who were teachers who i just admired their selflessness and their complete lack of concern with

any material objects at all. the highest possible incomes a doctor could earn, but you made this choice. which you ascribe in your book to the nuns you had in elementary school. and to the teachers you had in high school. and somewhat to your parents but a lot of people were exposed to those very same influences and it didn't take. why do you think it took with you? >> well, you know, it was the gratification and satisfaction, the privilege of trying to save

somebody's lives. there i did multiple years of residency. i took a fellowship at the nih. >> and you were only signing up for three years. you thought i will do three years down there. and move on. >> i thought i would head back to new york city and open up an office back there. >> you had a huge offer in new york city of back at cornell medical center, making you the big doc, that would have involved a private practice in association with that where you could have been the richest doctor in new york. >> yeah. but i got. >> and you said no, let me do more government service. >> yes. the reason i did that, i went down there, i realized something. that not everyone needs to do that. but getting involved in

research in which you can solve a clinical problem, develop a therapeutic regimen, that would not only help you save the individual patient that you are caring for, but that would have a multiplier effect that if you do make a discovery or at least incrementally advance the field, you could have an impact on many, many fold more people than just the individual patient. so, i had a wonderful situation of caring on hands for my patient ins the research hospital. at the same time as publishing papers that others, not only in the united states, but perhaps throughout the world who could use it with their patients and to me, quite frankly, that's priceless.

i used to say i would do this for nothing. it was so gratifying. >> in medical salary terms you were. but, and your feeling about the work comes through. repeatedly in this book, you have these very simple sentences about how much i love this. and it is so, it comes across so clearly. the other thing that you do so brilliantly in this book and i believe i'm the test for this. is you make medicine understandable. at least when i'm holding the book in my hands and i'm reading your description of the mrna vaccines and the platform and how it works, it all makes sense to me in a way that i'm sure i would be just intimidated right out of the classroom in the medical school. but you make us understand that as we are reading. >> that's what i try to do.

it goes to the things the jesuit caught me. the economy of expression. make it clear so that people could understand what you are talking about. because one of the most important things about communication i have found is not to impress people about how smart you are. but to get them to understand what the heck you are talking about. and that is one of the things i learned, that is the most important thing. that's what i try to do in the book. didn't try to dumb it down at all. but i try to make it clear so that people at various levels would understand it. >> yeah. the doubters about these vaccines and any vaccines would learn so much just by reading your description of them. i want to talk about larry kramer and others, pierce daley. we did a live event here in new york city. these people were just incredibly brave and angry heros in their own right. both of them suffering from hiv themselves when there was no

cure. when there was no hope. leaders of the angriest possible protests against you at the time. there wasn't so much a specific accusation against you. i was watching a documentary about this. that you mentioned in your book last night. one of the chants is they are demanding a cure. it is the only protest i have ever seen which is demanding a scientific result that does not currently exist. everyone else is demanding an action that the government can do. this was something that needed patient research you are doing that research, being attacked by them. and somehow, they become your friends. because you make a decision i have never seen a public official make before or since. you see them coming down to protest. you see peter staley literally

climbing up the wall and you think after they get arrested and processed by the police, invite them in, i want to talk to them. and you did that. >> yeah. well, there are several reasons. one was the feeling i had for what they were doing through. their purpose was to get the attention of the medical community, the scientific community and the regulatory community geared successfully in the past to handle diseases where you get interventions out that are safe and effective but it is done in a rather rigid way. inclusion and exclusion criteria. very little room for compassionate usage and a regulatory process that takes years with a group, once they got ill, this was very early in the outbreak. they had 10 to 15 months to live. so the process as successful as

it was with other things didn't work for them so they wanted to be a part of the dialogue to discuss what the scientific agenda would be. and the scientists understandably, but totally incorrectly were saying we know what's best for you. we're the scientists. we're the regulators and at first i felt that way. for a very brief period of time. then they started to be proactive, disruptive. which made the scientists pull back even more. when i saw how much pain and fear they had, the empathy that goes all the way back to my childhood said let me listen to what they are saying. once i listened, they made absolute sense. i said honestly if i were in their shoes i would be doing exactly what they were doing. that is when i said i really need to talk to these people. and when you spoke to them,

they turned out to be brilliant and understanding and the process of research and regulation today are better off because of what the activists did. and that was one of the best things i have ever done in my life. >> just a brilliant and such a humane choice. there is a beautiful two-hander to write with two actors of anthony fauci and larry kramer together on stage. it almost writes itself. if you read this book. we will squeeze in a quick break. when we come back, we will give the audience a chance to consider which president said this. they can think about it over the break. we love you, tony. thanks for all you did for our country and the world. i will not miss washington very much when i leave but i will miss you and people like you. the answer to which president said that will be right after this break. e right after this break. ♪♪

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secretary of state mark meadows is extremely busy. if you have a question for him, do that. i would like him to go back to the state department or as they call it the deep state department. if you don't mind. i would like to have him go back and do his job. so does anybody have any question? please. [ laughter ] >> oh boy. yeah. that was a test. the deep state department. you did such a good job of not doing that in every other press conference. but the moment came where even stoney anthony fauci just couldn't quite believe what he was hearing. so what happened after that? >> you know, he wasn't phased with that. >> someone had to tell him. because you are behind him. so the knives came out at the white house to say hey. fauci just did this thing. >> i think that was the

beginning of sort of evolving of the hostility for me from the staff at the time when the president himself was not hostile to me. we had quite a good relationship early on. it was only when something like that is you know, a little ridiculous to say that. so it doesn't encroach upon the lane i'm responsible for. but when he started to say things because he understandably but incorrectly was hoping that the outbreak would end as the weather went down at the end of march and april. and i kept on telling him that it wouldn't. but he was wishful thinking that it would. and when it didn't, he started to say things that were factually incorrect like it is going to go away like magic and when it became clear that it

was doing this and not this, then he had to invoke magical things like hydroxychloroquine. the new end all. i had to say no, i'm sorry, that's not the case. it doesn't work. in fact, it could be harmful. his staff thought that i was trying to undermine him. but i had no antipathy toward him at all. i got along very well with him at the beginning. >> you had a brooklyn queens thing going on. >> yeah. we liked each other because we kind of like two guys from new york. talking in the oval office. but as it turned out, i just felt i had a responsibility for my own integrity but also for my responsibility to the american public so i didn't enjoy that. as i said often i have a great deal of respect for the presidency of the united

states. the people around him were furious at me for that including the communications people. including the people like peter navarro. i wasn't trying to harm the president. i was just trying to tell the truth to the american public. >> that's one of the thing ins this book. what was it like for you to be working with him as president with moments like that. by the way, that had nothing to do with that had to do with this crazy phrase, the deep state of the date department and you had the same new york reaction that anybody in new york would have to that. and, what you see in this book, you just keep your eye on the ball. you have this medical job to do and you are going to do it. but one thing i wondered about that is not in the book is you are living through like all the

rest of us from more not from the oval office. you are living through the trump presidency before covid hits before you get moved to the center of the trump presidency. you are watching the craziest presidency anyone has ever seen. are you sitting there and nih thinking wow, i'm glad we got the africa initiative done long before this guy was here? i hope nothing moves us right into the center of this president's concerns. >> absolutely is how i felt because i was a little bit concerned right from the beginning because i had had the privilege of advising to a greater or lesser degree several presidents before him. there were five. president obama was the fifth president. he was the sixth, and joe biden was the seventh so i had experience with five presidents

and when the first thing that i heard him say was something egregiously wrong. this is the largest crowd ever in the history of inaugurations and i'm watching it saying what is going on here? and then shawn spicer gets up and insists on the podium, almost angry with the american public. that is unquestionably larger. we have a problem. but the other thing that unnerves me a little bit. i had been involved with the media a long time. when he started aggressively being disrespectful to people in the press, people who i knew and worked with like john karl and like katelyn collins and others, i said, you know, there is something not right here. and that was my first experience was those two things that i just mentioned. so to go back to which president said this. we love you tony.

thanks for all you did for this country and the world. i will not miss washington very much but i will miss you and people like you. that was republican president george w. bush. and you had a very solid working relationship with both of the presidents bush. >> yes, very much so. >> and with george w. bush, his eagerness to really get to work on the issue of aids in africa had to come as a surprise, that was not something that you were used to from the oval office. >> he exerteding in that i talk about. what the capability of a determined leadership of a president of the united states i had been involved with the development of drugs to turn hiv from a death sentence into people living really normal lives. but there was a great disparity in that people in africa were

not having access to the drugs. so i felt strongly we needed to do something about it. but it wouldn't happen except enter george w. bush who calls me into the white house with his staff and says these were his words. that we have a moral responsibility as a rich nation to not allow people to die from a preventable, treatable disease merely because of where they have to live. so go to africa and figure out a way how we could do something transformative and responsive and accountable to do something for the sub saharan africans. and people in the caribbean. we did that. over a period of time, we put together a program he accepted which turned out to be the president's emergency plan for aids relief. it would not have happened if the president did not want it to happen. >> everyone hearing that right now is thinking what a terrible turn that republican party has

taken. before we go to this break, i will give the audience one more which president said this. this is an easier one. we have got to get back to normal by easter, he implored. i replied, mr. president, the virus doesn't understand easter. you won't have trouble guessing that one. we'll be right back. that one. we'll be right back. [coughing] copd hasn't been pretty. it's tough to breathe and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets. but trelegy has shown me that there's still beauty and breath to be had. because with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open and prevents future flare-ups. and with one dose a day, trelegy improves lung function so i can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed.

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the fundings needed to speed up testing and approval of any promising ebola vaccines

and treatments including those here at the nih, it is needed to help us partner with other countries to prevent and deal with future outbreaks and threats before they became epidemics. i just want to focus on this for a second. tony and i were fondly reminiscing about sars and h1n1. heh. that's what these guys do for fun. and we were lucky with h1n1 that it did not prove to be more deadly. we can't say we are lucky with ebola because obviously it is having a devastating effect in

west africa. but it is not airborne in its transmission. there may and likely will come a time in which we have both an airborne disease that is deadly. >> and that time came. and before we get to covid, you took your life in your hands to treat ebola patients. it's the most dangerous thing you have ever had to be in the room with. you weren't going to catch aids by treating aids patients. people could catch covid by treating covid patients. but ebola, ebola, the chance of you being killed in your treatment of an ebola patient was as high as it gets in the world of medicine. what about that when you think about your wife and your three kids. when you put on that suit, that

giant suit to walk in there to seal off your body from any possible contact and you are walking in there? what makes you walk in there? >> well the fact is we have a great team at the nih that is part of the team that did that and i just felt strongly that i didn't want to ask my team to do something that i myself was not willing to do. and so i just made it clear during the three plus weeks you are referring to was in our specialized intensive care unit by specialized i mean working with space suits in an intensive care setting. i just felt i could not say okay, guys and ladies, go in there and do that. i just wanted to be part of the team and i was part of the team. i didn't lead it. i was there doing my job according to what the icu guys were telling me to do. i was a worker.

not a leader. but i was in the room because i wanted to be with them. >> so, did christine grady, your amazing wife, who you of course met at work. where else are you going to meet anyone? she was a nurse treating the patients you were treating. did she know you were going to go in? >> yes. and in typical christine grady fashion, she said is that really what you want to do? my children were probably more concerned because i don't think they fully understand the issue at the time about personal protective equipment and what that would be. but she said she encouraged me to do it though she said i'm concerned. be careful. the care is mostly when you are taking off your personal protective equipment. because it is a very precise process with blood, urine, feces and things we had to take

care of in there obviously got all over our personal protective equipment. so there is a very, very precise way to do that. make sure they do it absolutely correctly. so we did and luckily no one got infected. >> there were people stopped from landing on a plane with ebola in some states. when you successfully had a patient emerge from treatment healthy, you made it a point to publicly hug that patient. let's take a look at that moment. this was a deliberate choice you made. you wanted everyone to see that this was completely safe and she should be welcomed back

among us. president obama hugging her in the white house. both of you giving that public example we have dealt with this. and this is how safe this is. >> there was a lot of stigma. it was an interesting kind of stigma. people were not quite sure they recovered. there was even some stigma against the doctors and nurses taking care of the patients thinking that they may be kind of subliminally infected and we don't know it and they will infect us. that was the reason why i did that and why to his credit president obama did the same thing. >> when covid hit, would you say you were ready or as ready as you could be? >> i was as ready as i could be. because as soon as the sequence of that virus became available on january 10th, 2020, my team

got mobilized. they had some spectacular scientists in there and they went to work in collaboration with the pharmaceutical company to get that vaccine work started literally within days. we had a phase one trial. phase two trial. phase three trial. we have a safe and highly effective vaccine. that had never been before done even close to that vaccine for a disease this deadly in history. >> and you did work. there is a very long list of important names about who deserves credit. we will take a quick break and be right back here. be right back here. light-headednessnce my d

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that distinct voice and smile behind the mask of course, my spirits were raised. it was always a joy to speak with you and i thoroughly enjoyed our conversations. later on when i got back home and had a chance to look up your accomplishments, and watch youtube videos of some of your congressional hearings in the past, i was almost embarrassed i had spoken so casually with you. because of all of you, i am alive and well today. i actually have a copy of a picture taken while i was still intubated. you were on either side of me providing icu care in your space suits. i will never forget it. so many west african patients did not have the same privilege i had. but nevertheless, you were by my side when it matters the

most. both with clinical acumen as well as a light hearted demeanor that could have taken me out of a bad mood. there is an old quote that it is more important to know what person has a disease than to know what sort of a disease a person has. i can honestly say you treated me as a person and not just a disease. thank you again for everything. i can never repay your kindness. i know and i know from our audience's comments prior to this show, that letter speaks for millions of people. i hope you can feel that level of gratitude from the millions of people. >> very much so and i appreciate that. thank you. thank you. you are now a medical school professor trying to i hope encourage the next generation of tony faucis. >> i'm a professor at georgetown university at

washington dc and loving it because i'm surrounded by bright inquisitive and very interesting young students. i'm usually surrounded by doctors and post docs and scientists. and these are young people in the very beginning of their careers. in education or law. it's a wonderful experience. >> would you do it again? after everything you have been through? the agony, the frustration, the vicious personal attacks? if you knew all that, would you do it again? >> in a heartbeat. without hesitating for a moment. >> i want to read something president obama said to you. he said i love you my friend. i said, it's the other way around. i love you, my friend, i said. love you back, man, he replied. and then gave me some parting

advice. don't let the s weigh you down tony. that sounds like the right kind of advice for the job you have had. as you go forward, what are your hopes for the rest of the work you will continue to do? >> well i hope to inspire young individuals at georgetown and elsewhere because i will be traveling and lecturing. to at least consider the possibility of going into public health and hopefully even public service. the reason i say that, what's going on today in our world, there are attacks upon people in public service and in public health and i want to impress upon them like i tried to do in the memoir that it is an incredibly gratifying and satisfying field. >> if you are in high school and you are thinking about a career in medicine. if you are in college, if you are in medical school, this is absolutely mandatory reading. on call, a doctor's journey in

public service. by dr. anthony fauci. dr. fauci, we really can't thank you enough. >> thanks so much lawrence. i appreciate it. >> we'll be right back. it. >> we'll be right back. (♪♪) bounce back fast from heartburn with new tums gummy bites, and love food back. (♪♪) ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪

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for ultimate business. and it's all from comcast business. ♪ ♪ [ speaking minionese ] no. no. no. no. no. no. [ gasps ] [ chuckling ] good job, junior. way to go. [ chuckling ] [ speaking minionese ] dr. anthony fauci get to night's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie starts right now.

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In his signature style, Lawrence O'Donnell goes into depth on the latest news developments and offers his take on the political stories driving the national conversation.

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