The Last Word With Lawrence O'Donnell : MSNBCW : June 20, 2024 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

they will issue major decisions one on top of the other, the last couple of days of the term, it will be a huge news dump. and frankly i think they are hoping that the average american. the average voter even people clued into the 2024 election are not going to have the time or the band with to process this and factor it into the vote in november. >> mark joseph stern, covering the courts for slate magazine. thank you so much for taking the time tonight. that is our show for this evening. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening lawrence. >> good evening. we have dr. anthony fauci joining us tonight. he will never be thanked enough for the lives he has saved including our own for all we know. with the covid vaccine, but i will try. i will spend some time trying to thank him enough. >> trying to thank him, thank him on behalf of all of us lawrence. >> we will. thanks. thank you. well, there will be a

parade tomorrow for this year's nba champions. the boston celtics. we give our heros parades. and the early days of space travel, we gave astronauts parades. but then we shot so many astronauts into space and to the moon, we stopped giving them parades. we took space travel for granted. it was no longer the stuff of heroism. our most important heros have always been taken for granted. there is no higher calling. than saving lives. some of you might know what it feels like. but most of us don't. most of us have never and will never save a life. not one. we won't drag a wounded soldier off a battlefield. we won't drive a dying person

to an emergency room just in time. we won't treat patients in hospitals who would die. not every doctor and nurse saves lives. some areas of medicine do not involve life and death. some doctors occasionally save lives and then, there is dr. anthony fauci. he has had the experience as an attending physician of saving the life of a patient to his care. saving lives. dr. fauci's work has saved millions upon millions of lives. >> who are the heros who were

there in american life today? who are the ones you would point out to young americans as figures who should inspire this country? >> dr. fauci. he is a very fine research. he convinced republican president george w. bush to fully fund a massive aids intervention project in africa. called the president's emergency plan for aids relief. pepfar was the largest global

health initiative for single disease in history. that was dr. anthony fauci's work. and that program saved over 25 million lives. >> there is nothing gay about these people engaging in incredibly offensive and revolting conduct that led to the proliferation of aids. >> there is a feeling of any number of professions or the general population. it has led to a little bit of a complacency about the approach ward this disease.

>> dr. fauci has always had to deal with harsh critics of his work and attacks on him personally. some activists were dissatisfied understandably since they were dying. dissatisfied with the medical progress in treating aids. they called dr. fauci a murder. the playwright larry kramer called him a murderer more than once. dr. fauci's reaction to the attacks were to invite the people attacking him and calling him a murder into his office to hear their complaints. they went to greenwich village. he went to san francisco to speak to the people in the streets, so hear their complaints. some of the protesters who called dr. fauci a murderer eventually became his best

friends. dr. fauci's work enabled larry cramer who was hiv positive to live to the age of 84. and their last words to each other? and what were the last weeks of larry kramer's life were? larry saying i love you, tony and i tearfully responded i love you, too, larry. that story is told in anthony fauci's powerful, hugely informative and deeply emotional new book on call of doctor's journey. he filled the national institute of health with as many beds as possible to serve aids patients directly and to treat them directly himself and for the first time in his medical career, he was not a

lifesaver. he did not have the tools or the medicines. he was helplessly watching his patients die. ron had gone completely blind. the virus, despite treatment that was obviously inadequate had literally chewed up the critical sight elements of his retina from the time we had made morning rounds to the time we walked in to the room that evening. i constrained my emotions. he said to us, he expected that this would happen. because he had been gradually losing vision over the previous weeks. we left, and finished our rounds. i burst into tears.

i was angry. ron would soon die. we did not have to wait as long as aids patients had to wait for relief. thanks to the years, decades of research on vaccines and infectious diseases that anthony fauci and others committed their lives to, you all know the recent completely undeserved attacks that dr. fauci has suffered including in a recent congressional hearing. this is not the night for that. they have had their microphones. they will not be heard here. this hour is for you to finally, really meet the man. the man behind the title. the man behind all that wise medical advice that he has delivered for all of us for

decades. that man's compassion, commitment and wisdom filled the pages of his new book that is about his own love story with his wife and family. his scientific detective work that is full of suspense and drama. and actually lets you feel like you understand the medicine as you are reading it. and you do, but don't try to repeat it to anyone. the bedside manner this country has always needed in a public health crisis, that is the story told in this book. i invite you to meet dr. anthony fauci.

thank you very much for joining us tonight. this begins in benson hurst brooklyn with you living above the store. your father's store where you got your first feeling for medicine. >> yes. my father owned a drugstore in brooklyn, new york and we lived on top of the drugstore. my bedroom was right on top. this was the 40s and the 50s and at that time, pharmacies in the neighborhood were not the chain pharmacies we have now. and the pharmacist was the local psychiatrist marriage counselor and dock for the people there who maybe could not get to a physician. i learned right from the very beginning this issue of caring

about other people. i joked around. there are people in the neighborhood not wealthy at all. often could not afford the price of the prescription and he would essentially give it to them either on a bill which they never paid. we didn't do very well financially, the satisfaction of take care of the neighborhood was something that i learned from the time i was eight, nine, ten years old. he let the kids hang around.

crowd things up. it was the closest they will get to medical advice. >> as you were living there above the store when it comes time to go to high school, you take three subways to get out of bensonhurst. across the east river all the way up to the upper east side to go to a catholic boy's school where you were given a scholarship. and that place became the real introduction to academics. >> it was regis high school. a jesuit high school in manhattan as you described, lawrence. and it really was an underscoring and solidifying of the things i learned when i was eight, nine, ten years old with my parents. because the motto of the

school, it was an old boy's school. still is. was men for others which is kind of the mantra to the jesuits. i learned there that same sort of mission in life of whatever you do, you don't have to go into codified public service. but whatever you do, you should try and serve mankind and hopefully make a contribution to making the world a better place. >> they said that stuff to all of us. i had great priests who were teachers who i just admired their selflessness and complete lack of concern with any material objects at all. which is kind of the way you lived your life on a government salary as a physician coming

out of high powered training where you could have written your own ticket to the highest possible incomes a doctor could earn. but you made this choice. which you ascribe in your book to the nuns you had in elementary school. and to the teachers you had in high school. and somewhat to your parents. but a lot of people were exposed to those very same influences and it didn't take. why do you think it took with you? >> it was the satisfaction as you mentioned in the introduction of having the privilege of being involved and trying to save somebody's life. there are plenty of physicians on the outside who do that. but the added twist for me is that when i took my fellowship, i did multiple years of residency and i took a fellowship three years at the

nih. >> you were only signing up three years. >> my goal as i described in the memoir was to get my training, a combined fellowship in infectious diseases and head back to new york city and open up an office somewhere. >> you had a huge offer back in new york city at the end of those three years. a huge offer. back at cornell medical center. they are making you the big dock. that would have involved also a private practice in association with that. where you just would have been, you could have been the richest doctor in new york. >> but i got. >> and you said no, let me do more government service. >> the reason that i did that, because when i went down there, i realized something that for me, it doesn't necessarily mean everyone needs to do that. getting involved in research in which you can solve a clinical problem, develop a therapeutic regimen that would not only help you save the individual

patients that you are caring for, but that would have a multiplier effect that if you make a discovery or at least incrementally advance the field, you could have an impact on many, many more people than just the individual patients. i had a wonderful situation for me that worked well where i had the individual satisfaction of caring on hands for my patients in the research hospital at the same time as publishing papers that others not only in the united states, but perhaps throughout the world who could use it with their patients. and to me, frankly, that's priceless. that is worth multiple, multiple levels more of the salary that i was getting. in fact, we used to say somewhat facetiously, but not totally that i would do this for nothing.

>> in medical salary terms, you were. your feeling about the work comes through. repeatedly in this book, you have these very simple sentences about how much i love this. and it is so, it comes across so clearly. the other thing that you do so brilliantly in this book and i believe i'm the test for this. is you make medicine understandable. at least when i'm holding the book in my hands and reading your description of the mrna vaccines. and the platform and how it works. it all makes sense to me in a way that i'm sure i would be just intimidated right out of the classroom and the medical school. but you make us understand it. >> that's what i try to do. i have to say it goes back to

some of the things. one of the most important things about communication i have found is not to impress people about how smart you are, but to get them to understand what the heck you are talking about. that's one of the things i learned, that is the most important thing. i tried to make it clear so that people at various levels would understand it. >> the doubters about these vaccines and any vaccines would learn so much by reading your description of them. i want to talk about larry kramer and others, peter staley who i met with you earlier tonight. we did a live event in new york city. these people were just incredibly brave and angry heros in their own right. both of them suffering from hiv themselves when there was no cure and no hope. leaders of the angriest possible protests against you

at the time. if there wasn't so much a specific accusation against you. i was watching the documentary about this. one of the chants is when they come down to protest is they are demanding a cure. demanding a cure. it is the only protest i have ever seen which is demanding a scientific result that does not currently exist. everyone else is demanding an action that the government can do. this was something that needed patient research. you are doing that research. you are being attacked by them. and somehow, they become your friends because you make a decision i have never seen a public official do before or sense. you see them coming down to protest. peter staley climbing up the wall to your window. your thought is after they get arrested and processed by the police, invite them in.

i want to talk to them. and you did that. >> well, there were several reasons. one is the feeling i had for what they were going through. their purpose was to get the attention of the medical community, the scientific community and the regulatory community that was geared successfully in the past to handle diseases where you get interventions out that are safe and effective but it is done in a rather rigid way. inclusion and exclusion criteria is very little room for compassionate usage and a regulatory process that takes years. once they got ill, this was very early in the outbreak. they had a median time of ten months, 15 months to live. so the process didn't work for them. they wanted to be a part of the dialogue to discuss what the

scientific agenda would be. and the scientist understandably, but totally incorrectly were saying we know what is best for you. and at first i felt that way for a very brief period of time. and then, they started to be very proactive. when i saw how much pain and fear they had, the empathy in me that goes way back to my childhood said let me listen to what they were saying. i need to talk to these people.

people are better off because of what the activists did. that was one of the best things i have ever done in my life. >> and just a brilliant and such a humane choice. let me talk to them. there is a beautiful two hander to write. with anthony fauci and larry kramer on age. it almost writes itself. we will squeeze in a quick break. when we come back, we will give the audience a chance to consider which president said this. they can think about it over the break. we love you, tony. thanks for all you did for our country and the world. i will not miss washington very much when i live but i will miss you and people like you. the answer to which president said that will be right after this break. will be right after this bre. ak some days, you can feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults

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conference. but the moment came where even stoney anthony fauci just couldn't quite believe what he was hearing. so what happened after that? >> he wasn't fazed with that. but that was the beginning. >> someone had to held him. >> evolving hostility toward me on the part of staff. which just grew and grew. at a time when the president himself was not hostile to me. something like that is a little

ridiculous to say that. as the outbreak and weather went down. i kept on telling him it wouldn't. but he was wishful thinking it would. he started to say things that were factually incorrect. had invoke magical things like hydroxychloroquine that will be the new all end all. that is when the reporter asked me. i had to say no, i'm sorry. in the beginning i got along very well with him. but i felt it was my responsibility. >> you had a brooklyn queens thing going on.

>> we liked each other because we were kind of like two guys from new york. you know. talking in the oval office. i had a responsibility for my own integrity but for my responsibility to the american public. so i didn't enjoy that because as i said often i have a great deal of respect for the presidency of the united states. the people around him were furious at me for that. they were just furious with me and i was not trying to harm the president. i was just trying to tell the truth to the american public. >> yeah. and that's in this book which is one of the mysteries revealed in this book. is what was it like for you to be working with him? that had to do with this crazy

phrase. the deep state. the state department. you had is same new york reaction that anyone in new york would have to that. and what you see in this book, you just keep your eye on the ball. you have this medical job to do and you are going to do it. but one thing i wondered about that is not in the book, you are living through like all the rest of us for more, before covid hits. before you get moved right into if center of the trump presidency. you are watching the craziest presidency anyone has ever seen. i hope nothing moves us into the center of this president's

concerns. >> i was concerned right from the beginning because i had had the privilege of advising to a greater or lesser degree several presidents before him. there were five, president obama was the fifth president. he was the sixth. and joe biden was the seventh. so i had experience with five presidents. and when the first thing that i heard him say was something that was egregiously wrong, this was the largest crowd ever. >> you are watching that like we are. >> and i'm watching it saying what is going on here and then sean spicer gets up and insists on the podium, almost angry with the american public. that is unquestionly illogical. the other thing that unnerves me a little bit because i had been involved with the media for a very long time. when he started aggressively

being disrespectful to people in the press, people who i knew and worked with like john karl and katelyn collin and others, i said there is something not right here. and that was my first experience was those two things that i just mentioned. >> to go back to that which president said this, we love you tony. thanks for all you do for our country and the world. i will not miss washington very much when i leave. but i will miss you and people like you. that was republican president george w. bush. and you had a very solid working relationship with both of the presidents. >> yes. very much so.

>> i have talked often about what the capability of the determined leadership of a president of a united states i had been, you know, involved with the development of drugs with the pharmaceutical companies to turn hiv from a death sentence into people living really normal lives. but there was a great disparity in that people in africa. not having access to the drugs. i felt strongly we needed to do something about it. it wouldn't have happened except enter george w. bush who calls me into the white house. who don't allow people to die from a preventable treatable disease merely because of where

they have to live. to make things different for the sub saharan africans. we did that. we put together a program which he accepted which turned out to be the president's emergency plan for aids relief. it would not have happened if the president did not want it to happen. we have to get back to normal by easter. i said mr. president, the virus doesn't have easter. you won't have trouble guessing that one. we'll be right back. that one. we'll be right back. just know tt the best rate for you is a rate based on you, with allstate. because there's a right way to. stop! and the speed limit definitely isn't. 700 million mph. so why would you pay a rate based on. a terrible boss with a terrible haircut!

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the funding is needed to speed up testing and approval of any promising ebola vaccines and treatments including those here at the nih. it is needed to help us partner with other countries to prevent and deal with future outbreaks and threats before they become epidemics. this i want to just focus on for a second. tony and i were fondly reminiscing about sars and h1n1. that's what these guys do for

fun. and we were lucky with h1n1. that it did not prove to be more deadly. we can't say we are lucky with ebola because obviously it is having a devastating effect in west africa. but it is not airborne in its transmission. there may and likely will come a time in which we have both an airborne disease that is deadly. >> and that time came. and before we get to covid, you took your life in your hands to treat ebola patients.

it's the most dangerous thing you have ever had to be in the room with. you weren't going to catch aids treating aids patients. people could catch covid treating covid patients but ebola, ebola, the chance of you being killed in your treatment of an ebola patient was as high as it gets in the world of medicine. you think about your wife and your three kids when you put on that suit, that giant suit to walk in there to seal off your body from any possible contact and you are walking in there. what makes you walk in there? >> i just felt strongly that i didn't want to ask my team to do something that i myself was not willing to do. so i just made it clear that during the three plus weeks

that patient you are referring to was in our specialized intensive care unit by specialized i mean working with space suits in an intensive care setting. i felt like i couldn't just say okay ladies and gentlemen, go in there and do it. i was doing my job according to what the icu guys were telling me to do. i was a worker, not a leader. but i was in the room because i wanted to be with them. >> so did christine grady, your amazing wife, who you of course met at work, where else are you going to meet anyone, did she know you were going to go in? >> yes. yes. and in typical christine grady fashion, she said is that what you really want to do? my children were probably more concerned because i don't think think fully understood the issue at the time about personal protective equipment

and what that would be. but she said she encouraged me to do it though she said i'm concerned, obviously, be careful. be careful. the care is mostly when you are taking off your personal protective equipment. because it is a very, very precise process. that this person happened to be really very ill so the idea of bodily fluids with blood, urine, feces and everything we had to take in there obviously got all over our personal protective equipment and you get infected when you take it off improperly. so there is a very, very precise way to do that with very well trained mostly nurses who watch you and make sure you do it absolutely correctly so we did and no one got infected. >> there were governors trying to stop anyone who might have been exposed to ebola from even landing in their states.

and when you successfully treated a patient who emerged from treatment healthy you made it a point to publicly hug that patient. let's take look at that moment. this was a deliberate choice you made. you wanted everyone to see that this was completely safe and that she should be welcomed back among us. after that. president obama, i think we have a shot of president obama also hugging her in the white house. both of you giving that public example of we have dealt with this and this is how safe this is. >> of course there was a lot of stigma associated in africa and even, it was an interesting stigma. not only people recovered, people not quite sure they recovered and they didn't want to have anything to do with them. but there was some stigma against the doctors and nurses taking care of the patients thinking that they may be kind of subliminally infected and they don't know it and they

will infect us. that's is reason why i did that and why to his credit, president obama did the same thing. >> when covid hit, would you say you were ready or as ready as you could be? >> i was as ready as i could be with my standpoint as a physician and scientist. as soon as the sequence of that virus became available on january 10th, 2020, my team got mobilized from the vaccine research center that reported directly to me. but they had some spectacular scientists in there. and they went to work in collaboration with the pharmaceutical company to get that vaccine work started literally within days. in a couple of months, we had a phase one trial, phase two, three trial. 1 months go by and we have a safe and highly effective vaccine. that had never been done even close to that by any other vaccine for a disease this

deadly in history. >> and this book, and you are great at assigns credit to this work to researchers who did amazing work on that vaccine. and by the way, throughout the book on all of the medical issues raised, there is a very long list of important names you are going to learn about who deserves credit for saving these lives faced with these threats. we will take a final quick break here. we'll be right back. break here. 'll be right back. i have type t i manage it well ♪ ♪ jardiance! ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance ♪ ♪ at each day's start! ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to see ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c! ♪ jardiance works twenty-four seven in your body to flush out some sugar. and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. serious side effects may include ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections.

a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction. you may have an increased risk for lower limb loss. call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of infection in your legs or feet. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪ jardiance is really swell ♪ ♪ the little pill ♪ ♪ with a big story to tell! ♪ right now across the u.s., people are trying to ban books from public schools and public libraries. yes, libraries. we all have a first amendment right to read and learn different viewpoints. that's why every book belongs on the shelf. yet book banning in the u.s. is worse than i've ever seen.

it's people in power who want to control everything. well, i say no to censorship. and i say yes to freedom of speech and expression. if you do too, please join us in supporting the american civil liberties union today. for over 100 years, the aclu has fought for your rights and mine. including the right to read all manner of books. so please call or go online to myaclu.org. for just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day. you can become a guardian of liberty and help protect all the rights promised to us by the u.s. constitution. make no mistake, this move to ban books is a coordinated attack on students right to learn. this is a clear violation of free speech. that's why the aclu is working to fight against censorship in all its forms. it is so important now more than ever.

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there is a thank you letter in your book to you from a patient you treated, and i want to read it because i know it actually expresses the kind of things that millions of people feel for you will work. this is a patient you treated yourself as a doctor. would you believe that every afternoon i was in the hospital i always look forward to receiving your visit. it is true. every time you walked in with that distinct tenor voice and smile behind the mask of course my spirits were raised. it was always a joy to speak with you and i thoroughly enjoyed our conversations. later on when i got back home and had a chance to look up your accomplishments and watch youtube videos of some of your congressional hearings in the past i was almost embarrassed that i had spoken so casually with you. because of all of you i am

alive and well today. i actually have a copy of a picture taken while i was still intubated. in it you are on either side of me. in the spacesuits providing icu care. i will never forget that image. it really is worth 1000 words. i truly did not deserve the level of care he helped to provide so many other, but you were by my side when it mattered most. both with clinical acumen as well as a lighthearted demeanor that could have taken me out of any bad mood. there is an old quote that goes like this. it is more important to know what sort of person has a disease and to know what sort of disease a person has. i can honestly say that you treated me as a person and not

just a disease. thank you again for everything. i can never repay your kindness. i know from our audiences comments prior to this show that the letter speaks for millions of people. i hope you can feel that level of gratitude from the millions of people who feel it. >> very much so, and i appreciate that. thank you. >> you are now a medical school professor trying to i hope to encourage the next generation of tony fauci's. >> i am the professor at georgetown university in washington dc, and i am loving it because i am surrounded by bright and inquisitive and very interesting young students. i'm usually surrounded by doctors and scientists, and these are young people in the very beginning of their careers in education or law or wherever they are going. it is a wonderful experience. >> would you do it again? >> after everything you have

been through. the wins and losses in suffering and agonies and frustrations and attacks in vicious personal attacks? if you know that would you do it again? >> in a heartbeat. without hesitating for a moment. >> i want to read something president obama said to you. he said i love you, my friend. i said, it is the other way around. i love you, my friend, i said. love you back, he replied. and then gave me some parting advice. do not let them weigh you down, tony. that sounds like the right kind of advice for the job that you have had. >> thank you. >> as you go forward what are your hopes for the rest of the work he will continue to do? >> i hope to inspire young individuals at georgetown and elsewhere because i will be traveling and lecturing. to at least consider the possibility of going into public health and hopefully

even public service. the reason i say that is because what is going on today in our world is there are attacks upon people in public service and public health, and i want to impress upon them that it's an incredibly gratifying and satisfying field. >> if you are in high school thinking about a career in medicine or college or medical school this is absolutely mandatory reading. dr. fauci, we can never thank you enough. >> thank you so much.>> we will be right back.

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In his signature style, Lawrence O'Donnell goes into depth on the latest news developments and offers his take on the political stories driving the national conversation.

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